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HOLLOWAY JOINS FIGHT AGAIN HUMAN TRAFFICKING
Tags: Jacob, man in black, Season 5, The Incident, Videos
May 15th, 2009 at 8:40 am
What can change the nature of man?
The biggest difference between these two seems to lie in their faith in humanity. Jacob is seemingly optimistic, while his antagonist (Smokey?) seems very pessimistic. I don’t know what their end game is, but its clear that changing the nature of people is going to play a huge role in shaping the outcome.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:26 am
It´s Good versus Evil, Jacob representing the Good and Smokey or his brother or whoever he is representing the Bad.
Jacob belives in the Good Part of People, and thinks that they can do better than fighting, destroying and corrupting. He wants to share the Island with People, give them a Good Life. (He brought the black Rock, or did he?)
His Rival however wants to keep the Island to himself, history has shown him that humanity is bad and all they care about is killing each other. They are not worthy of this Island (Paradise?)
He wants to kill Jacob, because this is his only Chance to keep the Island to himself, and he despites him for his foolish ideals. But he can´t do it himself because he is some kind of god or descendant of god.
I like that this is like the Ben vs. Widmore rivalry, plus they can´t kill each other also.
The next generation of this is Aaron vs. Walt, at least that what I think.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:33 am
I have a good feeling that Smokey took the ship captain identity and found out who they are. I also feel Jacob took an identity of a ship mate.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Well i was gonna share my thoughts, but it looks like you guys got it down pat already.
Season 6 just surely tell an epic story, now that wii know what’s really going on.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Ah, what was the loophole?
Convincing someone else to kill Jacob cos he couldn’t himself?
Excuse the slowness,
Thanks!
p.s. @ Daniel: Looking forward to the Aaron vs Walt series finale!!
May 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am
anyone else think that the ‘jacob’ in the cabin that weve seen up to this point was in fact the enemy? the ‘help me’ was him speaking to locke, as he was imprisoned in the cabin and the ring of ash…locke ultimately did help him as the enemy took his form and succeeded in getting jacob killed.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I have an other idea. Could Jacob have sent some of the oceanic 6 to change the past so that he doesnt die and the outcome is different? While ‘smokey’ is in the present killing him. BTW his last words ‘they are coming’ was he refering to the others as they now know he is not Locke or that the past is changed and Jack & Company are returning the future…?
May 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Charles… I think just like you!.. and i like ur idea rockon. awesome show. can not wait for season 6
May 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
the loophole was the compass, which was like the producers explained in the latest podcast somehting special, because the compass does only exists in that loop if you think about it. in this loop the enemy of jacob in the form of locke tells richard to tell locke, that locke has to die. because of the fact that he dies and comes back to the island, the enemy (smokey) can appear as the ghostform of dead locke and convince ben to kill jacob.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am
So what we know is Jacob and his enemy, who I’ll again call Esau, have been on this island for a long long time. We can glean a whole lot from the beginning. It seems the two are in a long argument/struggle/conflict, the root of which is that Esau believes that anyone on the island will always be in conflict, there will always be fighting, destruction, and corruption. Jacob thinks otherwise, that at some point this can be changed. “It only ends once.” Everything else happens to lead up to this one end point. So even before the Black Rock, there’ve been others there with the same struggle, perhaps Egyptians. And many since then. US Army, the original Hostiles, Dharma, Russeau’s crew, 815, the Freighter, just cycles and cycles of conflict on the island. The big thing is that Esau says Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island. Jacob is trying to prove Esau wrong by bringing more and more groups to the island. So how powerful is Jacob? He doesn’t age, and can influence people toward the island, and can appear off the island seemingly anywhere. I don’t think he actually leaves, but can project himself off-island to talk to and influence other people. But Jacob can’t (or won’t) MAKE people do what he wants, he always leaves it up to their decision, presumably to keep with trying to prove Esau wrong. But is he more powerful than, or equally powerful to, Esau? Esau can seemingly project himself, but we’ve seen him do it as other people. Maybe Jacob can’t quite do that. They also can’t kill each other. So Esau had to go through a lot to “find the loophole” and influence Ben to kill him, via Locke. Why it took those specific people I don’t know.
So Jacob lives in the statue. I have a big feeling the cabin was never Jacob’s, and he never lived there. Ben was using it to pretend. It was Horace who originally built it, so this makes sense. However, the cabin is not meaningless. It just isn’t Jacob’s. There was still something going on there when Ben brought Locke to it. Things flying around, and Locke hearing “help me.” So many have believed this is where Esau perhaps was acting. But he didn’t really live there, we didn’t see anything but for a split second. We also see Ilana’s crew going to it, and I don’t think they were looking for Jacob there. I think they were looking for Esau. What significance the ash has, I have no idea. It being broken is a big deal apparently. Did we see it get broken? Was it broken when Ben and Locke or Hurley were at the cabin? Maybe it being broken allows Esau to escape and possess people. But he’s seemingly possessed Christian.
So now we’re at Christian, who’d instructed Locke that the island had to be moved, the wheel had to be turned. He also told him he had to die and bring everyone back. Now seemingly Esau would want him to die and come back so he could possess him, and he really doesn’t care about bringing everyone back. He only uses that part to convince Locke to die and come back, making it seem like it’s the only way. It’s odd though, if Christian is Esau, how did he appear to Sun and Frank to tell them what to do, if he was currently with Ben as Locke? Can he be two people at once? Seems like a atretch. I don’t remember the exact order of how those events happened as I can’t find the ep online anywhere, but it throws a big wrench into Esau also being Christian. I do think Christian is associated with Esau and his mission however. I also think Esau in associated with the smoke monster, but is not actually the smoke monster. I think Smokey acts on his behalf.
I think the end result here is that the characters we know, the 815ers and everyone related to them, will finally end this long going conflict and settle the argument somehow.
May 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I’m partially on board with what a few of you said already… But I think “the end” has more to do with the the END….as in….The Apocalypse. I think Grey Haired Man (Samuel?), like some of you said, believes that man is inherently bad, and will ultimately kill themselves off (I believe that is also the root of the Valenzetti Equation) through war (fight) greed (corrupt), and overpopulation (destroy). By the sound of it, it’s possible they’ve both already experienced The Apocalypse, and man’s folly in another “loop”. Jacob, on the other hand, believes that man is inherently good, and through careful selection and alignment of people, believes can avoid The Apocalypse, and “prove Samuel wrong”. If we think of “The End” as the Apocalypse, or the end of mankind, then that conversation makes more sense. After all, you can only have ONE Apocalypse, right? Anything before that is just progress towards avoiding it.
GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Still trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?
BLOND MAN: You are wrong.
GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
BLOND MAN: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
Progress towards what you may ask? The Apokatastasis…..
Doc Jensen just touched on this thought in his column better than I can:
“There is a single end; everything before then is progress. Chardin believed his Omega entity was basically Jesus Christ himself. His phrase, “everything that rises must converge,” is a poetical expression of a key Christian idea known in the Greek apokatastasis. It’s like the opposite of apocalypse, or rather, what comes after apocalypse. I’m not trying to get all religious on you, but it is what it is: apokatastasis is the idea that in the end, Satan will be defeated and that all of creation will be redeemed and unified under Christ. “Now is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.” (John 12:31-32) Or, again, to use a line from the show: “He who WILL (the future tense is key) save us all.” That, my friends, is the answer, translated from Richard Alpert’s Latin, to Ilana’s riddle: “What lies in the shadow of the statue?”
May 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Sorry….one more thought on this. This is more of a theory:
Jacob’s whole motivation in recruiting these people, or “bringing them to the island” is to populate the island with “good” people. If the “good” people can live in harmony on the island, and outlive the rest of the corrupt, greedy people in the real world as they kill themselves off (Valenzetti Equation), the people on the island can repopulate the world with “good” people and prevent the apocalypse.
“Just savin’ the world brotha.”
May 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
After seeing the black letters LOST on a white background at the end of the episode and rewatching conversation between Jacob and the black-shirt guy, where the last seemed somewhat weary, worried, and tired of Jacob’s actions, and thinking on what the makers of the show have said that the rules of “Lost” will be changed in the last season, I’m starting to think, what if Jacob is not good, and the other guy is not evil? What if it’s vice versa? Black is white and white is black? It has been also said by Darlton that the main idea of the show is hidden in the pilot episode. I think it’s the moment when Locke tells Walt about baggamon, about an ancient game, where two players with black and white checkers play against each other. What if Jacob is fooling around, playing games, bringing all kinds of people to the island to prove something to his rival (we actually don’t know yet wheather it’s about proving the goodness of people, right?)? What if these actions, these fights, destruction and corruption of people brought to the island do harm to some higher goal, sought by the black-shirt man, and hence his wish to kill Jacob?
May 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
just another thought that came into my head. I do think the smoke monster is one in the same with Esau. If you remember, when Ben saw the smoke monster, Locke “ran” to get help and wasn’t there. The monster can’t take more than 1 form so he needed to leave to take the form of Ben’s daughter.
Not a big revelation, but something small that I just thought of.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I agree with what a lot of you are saying. I believe this obviously is a very loaded conversation. They are talking about the inherent goodness of man but they are also talking about their ability to be changed. Two huge themes with this show, along with good vs. evil, is fate vs. free will and redemption/change. We’ve watched our characters change a great deal (progress) and deal with their past and their “inherent nature” We’ve also heard them continually debate fate and free will. Does Whatever Happen Happen? Can things and people really change (variables)? And what really is the “good” thing? Is it better to have a free will? Or is it better to have a “destiny”? For now we see it led Locke down a useless path. But what is it really “useless” or was it progress?
….like I said LOADED conversation. All of these things were wrapped up in how Jacob and Esau are proving each other wrong.
Two big questions. Why does Esau want to kill Jacob? ->What does Jacob have that Esau does not? Where did these two “men” come from? ->Who gave Jacob what Esau does not have?
May 17th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Back to what Bones said about the cabin. I think it was originally jacobs and that illana was looking for him to warn jacob about locke. Since the ash circle was not complete, i think jacob had to leave the cabin and go to thw statue. Christian or jacobs enemy then moved into the cabin to pretend to be jacob and control the people.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
rivulet, you bring up an idea that I’ve been thinking about. All the talk on the boards is that people are convinced that Jacob is “good”. I’m not so sure that that’s the case. I imagine that he’s captured the other man and basically imprisoned him as he’s also compelled numerous other people to the island to their deaths. It seems he’s playing with mortals for his own amusement.
I’m a little unclear why Locke was required at all though if the loophole was just to convince someone else to kill Jacob. I would think that if Alex told Ben to do so that would have been enough.
May 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 am
So I kinda agree with Bones. Jacob and Esau (Twin sons of Isaac in the Bible) have been there for quite a while. But there is probably the Garden on Edan. If you recall, you couldn’t have children in the Garden and that huge statue is the Goddess of Fertility, most likely put there by the Egyptians who fist stumbled upon it and were confused about the lack of births. The Bible talks about how Esau is older and is tricked out of his birthright by Jacob and their mother when Jacob disguises himself as Esau. Maybe this is Esau’s payback (a continuation on the Bible’s story?) since Isaac, their father, made Esau promise to take care of Jacob after he died. I love this f-ing show, even if it does turn out to be religious.
If, for whatever reason, Esau gets to disguise himself as any dead person (i.e. Locke) then I think that Christian and Ben’s daughter (when she appeared in the black smoke) are also Esau, manipulating the people to finally kill Richard. But maybe the bomb in the past changes the future? I can’t wait til 2010!
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